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Re: sub-panel / feeder question for residence Steve Barker 03-17-2007
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Posted by Steve Barker on March 17, 2007, 2:19 pm


Nothing is "normally" done in this case, because it is not a "normal" case.
Why do you wish to complicate your electrical system like this?

--
Steve Barker

YOU should be the one
controlling YOUR car.
Check out:
www.lightsout.org




> This is for a yet-to-be-built house. I want to have a 200A
> electrical service that goes underground into the basement of a two-
> story house. For reasons I wont get into here I want a sub-panel (non
> service-rated panel) for each floor. At my option all the sub panels
> will have their own breaker. The 1st floor requires a 36A feeder and
> the second floor requires a 168A feeder. Besides controling all sub-
> panels from their respective breakers I want to be able to disconnect
> each sub-panel via main basement panel.
>
> I thought I would be able to treat the feeders almost like branch
> circuits running from the basement panel: a 40A double pole breaker
> for the 1st floor and a 175A double pole breaker for the 2nd floor.
> The problem is they don't seem to make double pole branch breakers
> larger than 125A --at least that's what my SquareD catalog says.
>
> What is normally done in this case?
>
> --zeb
>



Plumbing 468x60
Posted by on March 17, 2007, 2:53 pm


wrote:
> Nothing is "normally" done in this case, because it is not a "normal" case.
> Why do you wish to complicate your electrical system like this?
>
> --
> Steve Barker
Those are the reasons I mentioned I did not want to get into, but here
it goes. This is an all concrete building with all wiring in
conduit. Every switch controlled fixture is controlled by a low-
voltage remote control box located
located next to the sub panel for that floor. Remote control means a
home run of #14 for each control point. I'm finding it easier to
divide the wiring by floor rather then running hundreds of #14's thru
a big ass pipe from a central remote control panel in the basement.
The remote boxes for each floor are already quite large, combining
them into a single one would be prohibitive. Rather I want to run
feeders to each sub panel and have a floor-specific remote control box
next to each sub panel.

--zeb


Posted by John Grabowski on March 17, 2007, 8:07 pm



> wrote:
> > Nothing is "normally" done in this case, because it is not a "normal"
case.
> > Why do you wish to complicate your electrical system like this?
> >
> > --
> > Steve Barker
> Those are the reasons I mentioned I did not want to get into, but here
> it goes. This is an all concrete building with all wiring in
> conduit. Every switch controlled fixture is controlled by a low-
> voltage remote control box located
> located next to the sub panel for that floor. Remote control means a
> home run of #14 for each control point. I'm finding it easier to
> divide the wiring by floor rather then running hundreds of #14's thru
> a big ass pipe from a central remote control panel in the basement.
> The remote boxes for each floor are already quite large, combining
> them into a single one would be prohibitive. Rather I want to run
> feeders to each sub panel and have a floor-specific remote control box
> next to each sub panel.
>
> --zeb


Wow! That sounds like a lot of extra labor. It is never fun
troubleshooting these systems, because of the dual wiring. It always takes
more time to find out if the problem is low voltage or line voltage.

Have you considered an X-10 type system. There are several manufacturers
including Leviton which makes the Decora Home Controls (
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpSctDspRte.jsp?section=15117&minisite=10024
)
. With these systems you can wire the house normally and just install a
switch module instead of a switch. You would just need to have a neutral at
the switch location. Your lights could be controlled by computer, by
central command boxes, by a remote control, or by the switch module and
reprogramming is very easy. You can also have dimmers. This technology has
replaced (I thought) the 50's style relay system for homes and has been
around for about 30 years.


Posted by on March 17, 2007, 8:14 pm


> Wow! That sounds like a lot of extra labor. It is never fun
> troubleshooting these systems, because of the dual wiring. It always takes
> more time to find out if the problem is low voltage or line voltage.

Now that you mention it I will have to go back to my notes to find out
why I choose the relay controlled system I described. I like the
"switch density" e.g. being able to have a dozen or so pushbutton
switches in a 1-gang wall plate. I liked not having to rely on
sophisticated electronics that can't be fixed, then again I doubt I
could fix a relay. I like the latching feature of the relays I'm
using. They remain latched in their on or off state even if the power
goes off. The separate conduit for low voltage runs is definitely a
minus. I will reconsider the X10 offerings.

As to my original post, thanks to everyone. At least you got me
thinking. My 168A feeder number contained a lot of expansion
capacity so I was able to revise it down to 150A and still have
respectable expansion. Given this, I think (you tell me) I could use
a Square D QO2150 breaker to feed that feeder from the main basement
200A QO panel. The current Square D catalog has no cautions against
this, unlike my catalog from 2001.

--zeb


Posted by John Grabowski on March 17, 2007, 10:06 pm



> > Wow! That sounds like a lot of extra labor. It is never fun
> > troubleshooting these systems, because of the dual wiring. It always
takes
> > more time to find out if the problem is low voltage or line voltage.
>
> Now that you mention it I will have to go back to my notes to find out
> why I choose the relay controlled system I described. I like the
> "switch density" e.g. being able to have a dozen or so pushbutton
> switches in a 1-gang wall plate.


You can have that with X-10 without a bunch of extra wires.


I liked not having to rely on
> sophisticated electronics that can't be fixed, then again I doubt I
> could fix a relay.


The technology has evolved well over the years and is very reliable. Also
different manufacturers devices are usually interchangable. I do recommend
a good grounding system to protect the electronics from lightning strikes.


I like the latching feature of the relays I'm using. They remain latched in
their on or off state even if the power
> goes off.


I think that the X-10 relays stay latched during power failures.


The separate conduit for low voltage runs is definitely a
> minus. I will reconsider the X10 offerings.
>
> As to my original post, thanks to everyone. At least you got me
> thinking. My 168A feeder number contained a lot of expansion
> capacity so I was able to revise it down to 150A and still have
> respectable expansion. Given this, I think (you tell me) I could use
> a Square D QO2150 breaker to feed that feeder from the main basement
> 200A QO panel. The current Square D catalog has no cautions against
> this, unlike my catalog from 2001.
>
> --zeb
>


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